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Special Session on Pensions

Renee and her guests discuss the upcoming special legislative session on public employee pensions. Guests: State Sen. Joe Bowen, R-Owensboro, chair of the Senate State and Local Government Committee; State Sen. Morgan McGarvey, D-Louisville; State Rep. Jerry Miller, R-Louisville, chair of the House State Government Committee; and State Rep. Rick Rand, D-Bedford.
Season 24 Episode 30 Length 56:33 Premiere: 09/11/17

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Kentucky Tonight

KET’s Kentucky Tonight, hosted by Renee Shaw, brings together an expert panel for in-depth analysis of major issues facing the Commonwealth.

This weekly program features comprehensive discussions with lawmakers, stakeholders and policy leaders that are moderated by award-winning journalist Renee Shaw.

For nearly three decades, Kentucky Tonight has been a source for complete and balanced coverage of the most urgent and important public affairs developments in the state of Kentucky.

Often aired live, viewers are encouraged to participate by submitting questions in real-time via email, Twitter or KET’s online form. Viewers with questions and comments may send an email to kytonight@ket.org or use the contact form. All messages should include first and last name and town or county. The phone number for viewer calls during the program is 800-494-7605.

After the broadcast, Kentucky Tonight programs are available on KET.org and via podcast (iTunes or Android). Files are normally accessible within 24 hours after the television broadcast.

Kentucky Tonight was awarded a 1997 regional Emmy by the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. The series was also honored with a 1995 regional Emmy nomination.

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Renee Shaw is the Director of Public Affairs and Moderator at KET, currently serving as host of KET’s weeknight public affairs program Kentucky Edition, the signature public policy discussion series Kentucky Tonight, the weekly interview series Connections, Election coverage and KET Forums.

Since 2001, Renee has been the producing force behind KET’s legislative coverage that has been recognized by the Kentucky Associated Press and the National Educational Telecommunications Association. Under her leadership, KET has expanded its portfolio of public affairs content to include a daily news and information program, Kentucky Supreme Court coverage, townhall-style forums, and multi-platform program initiatives around issues such as opioid addiction and youth mental health.  

Renee has also earned top awards from the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS), with three regional Emmy awards. In 2023, she was inducted into the Silver Circle of the NATAS, one of the industry’s highest honors recognizing television professionals with distinguished service in broadcast journalism for 25 years or more.  

Already an inductee into the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame (2017), Renee expands her hall of fame status with induction into Western Kentucky University’s Hall of Distinguished Alumni in November of 2023.  

In February of 2023, Renee graced the front cover of Kentucky Living magazine with a centerfold story on her 25 years of service at KET and even longer commitment to public media journalism. 

In addition to honors from various educational, civic, and community organizations, Renee has earned top honors from the Associated Press and has twice been recognized by Mental Health America for her years-long dedication to examining issues of mental health and opioid addiction.  

In 2022, she was honored with Women Leading Kentucky’s Governor Martha Layne Collins Leadership Award recognizing her trailblazing path and inspiring dedication to elevating important issues across Kentucky.   

In 2018, she co-produced and moderated a 6-part series on youth mental health that was awarded first place in educational content by NETA, the National Educational Telecommunications Association. 

She has been honored by the AKA Beta Gamma Omega Chapter with a Coretta Scott King Spirit of Ivy Award; earned the state media award from the Kentucky Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in 2019; named a Charles W. Anderson Laureate by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet in 2019 honoring her significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues; and was recognized as a “Kentucky Trailblazer” by the University of Kentucky Martin School of Public Policy and Administration during the Wendell H. Ford Lecture Series in 2019. That same year, Shaw was named by The Kentucky Gazette’s inaugural recognition of the 50 most notable women in Kentucky politics and government.  

Renee was bestowed the 2021 Berea College Service Award and was named “Unapologetic Woman of the Year” in 2021 by the Community Action Council.   

In 2015, she received the Green Dot Award for her coverage of domestic violence, sexual assault & human trafficking. In 2014, Renee was awarded the Anthony Lewis Media Award from the KY Department of Public Advocacy for her work on criminal justice reform. Two Kentucky governors, Republican Ernie Fletcher and Democrat Andy Beshear, have commissioned Renee as a Kentucky Colonel for noteworthy accomplishments and service to community, state, and nation.  

A former adjunct media writing professor at Georgetown College, Renee traveled to Cambodia in 2003 to help train emerging journalists on reporting on critical health issues as part of an exchange program at Western Kentucky University. And, she has enterprised stories for national media outlets, the PBS NewsHour and Public News Service.  

Shaw is a 2007 graduate of Leadership Kentucky, a board member of CASA of Lexington, and a longtime member of the Frankfort/Lexington Chapter of The Links Incorporated, an international, not-for-profit organization of women of color committed to volunteer service. She has served on the boards of the Kentucky Historical Society, Lexington Minority Business Expo, and the Board of Governors for the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. 

Host Renee Shaw smiling in a green dress with a KET set behind her.

Legislative Options for Solving the Public Pension Crisis

A consultant’s report that suggested sweeping changes to Kentucky’s public pension systems has deeply unsettled retirees and caused many state workers and teachers to consider retiring sooner than they might have planned.

Frankfort Republicans say the recommendations from the PFM Group are merely a framework for overhauling the state retirement plans that are mired in unfunded liabilities totaling at least $35 billion. And legislators of both parties pledge they’ll preserve the benefits already promised to current workers and retirees.

But that still leaves members of the various retirement systems as well as taxpayers faced with shouldering those debts wondering exactly what lawmakers will do to address the crisis.

KET’s Kentucky Tonight explored the latest on pension reform with Sen. Joe Bowen (R-Owensboro), chair of the Senate State and Local Government Committee; Sen. Morgan McGarvey (D-Louisville); Rep. Jerry Miller (R-Louisville), chair of the House State Government Committee; and Rep. Rick Rand (D-Bedford).
 

 
The Battle Over Benefits
The PFM Group’s 113-page final report has drawn mixed reaction from lawmakers. Sen. Joe Bowen says PFM consultants took a conservative view of Kentucky’s pension systems and offered a thorough plan for addressing the crisis based on that perspective. He says lawmakers won’t embrace every recommendation in the report but will use it as a framework for drafting their own reform package.

Even Gov. Matt Bevin, whose administration commissioned the review, won’t adhere to every recommendation, says Rep. Jerry Miller. He says some of the options offered in the report aren’t legally or politically possible.

One such suggestion would have the state rescind (or claw back) cost-of-living adjustments retirees earned between 1996 and 2012. That would shrink benefit payments to some pensioners by as much as 32 percent, according to the Kentucky Center for Economic Policy.

Although such a clawback would immediately reduce the unfunded liabilities in the systems, Bowen says the action would not be “humane” to retirees who have grown accustomed to a certain level of monthly income.

“Let me comfort everyone out there who is getting a pension check: We are not going to claw back any benefits, in spite of what PFM said and how many times they said it,” says Bowen. “We’re not going to claw back any COLAs.”

Rep. Rick Rand says his fellow Democrats also won’t accept the idea of clawing back benefits already given to pensioners.

“People have built their careers, they have built their lives, they have raised their families around a promise we’ve made to them,” Rand says. “Anything less than that would just not be unacceptable to the Democratic caucus in the House.”

Tinkering with benefits that have already been earned could violate the inviolable contract between state and local workers and their employers, according to Sen. Morgan McGarvey. He contends that contract covers cost-of-living increases as well as the number of years an employee must work before being eligible for retirement. Another PFM Group recommendation would increase the retirement age for non-hazardous state workers to age 65. Hazardous workers such as police and firefighters would have to work to age 60.

“Short of going into bankruptcy or negotiating with consideration a new promise,” McGarvey says, “we can’t take those benefits and change them.”

Pensions Versus 401(k) Plans
The PFM Group also recommends a strategy that Gov. Matt Bevin has advocated for several years now: Place new hires into a 401(k)-type plan (also called a defined-contribution plan) in which the employee and employer both contribute to the plan and the employee receives a retirement benefit based on the market value of their investment portfolio.

In traditional pension plans, often called a defined benefit, only the employer contributes to the plan and employees are promised specific benefits upon retirement. (Kentucky operates a hybrid pension arrangement in which both the employer and the employee contribute to the system.)

The recommendations also call for newly hired teachers to be placed in a defined-contribution plan and receive Social Security, which educators currently enrolled in the Kentucky Teachers’ Retirement System are not eligible to receive.

Bowen, Miller, and other Republicans argue that defined-benefit plans are too expensive and too risky because they depend on a variety of financial assumptions that must be met to keep those plans solvent. If plan managers fail to meet assumed investment returns, inflation rates, and other targets, they may not have the funds to pay out the promised benefits.

“We don’t know how the market is going to react even if we have the most astute investors in the world,” Bowen says. “I wish it did work… but it’s unrealistic because these assumptions are too challenging and you can’t hit them – history tells us that.”

Miller says past mistakes such as using flawed assumptions and failing to make the actuarially required contributions have put the state in a position where lawmakers must consider switching to a defined-contribution plan.

“Had we funded it appropriately, absolutely we could keep a defined-benefit plan, but we didn’t,” says Miller. “Decisions were made over a 20-30 year period that underfunded it.”

But switching to a defined-contribution plan comes with its own set of risks and costs. McGarvey says says enrolling new hires into a 401(k)-type retirement would put the existing pension plan and its members in danger because those new employees would no longer be paying into the old system. As funds in the old pension system dwindle, plan managers would have to seek low-equity, low-yield investments to maintain the liquidity they’d need to pay out benefits.

With both those factors shrinking the available pension funds, the state (and taxpayers) would have to pay in even more money to keep the old pension plan afloat, says McGarvey.

“The cost of doing that is, in my opinion, provably more in the short term and potentially the very long term,” says McGarvey.

In switching to a 401(k)-type plan, the PFM Group suggested that employees would be able contribute up to 6 percent of their salary and the state would put in up to 5 percent. But McGarvey warns that’s not nearly enough of a match to lure private-sector workers to government jobs. He contends the match would need to be at least double that, which would further increase costs for the commonwealth.

Rand also fears that defined-contribution plans like a 401(k) might leave state workers with less retirement funds than they would need to maintain the standard of living they expect to have.

Local Governments Want a Separation
A number of city and county government leaders want the County Employees Retirement System (CERS) separated from the Kentucky Retirement Systems (KRS). Bowen sponsored legislation in the 2017 General Assembly to split the two systems because he says CERS has more members and more assets compared to the overall state system. CERS is about 60 percent funded while KRS has only about 16 percent of the funding it needs.

New financial assumptions approved by the KRS board earlier this year could cause city and county government pension payments to jump by as much as 60 percent next fiscal year, according to a letter state Budget Director John Chilton sent to local government officials last week. For Metro Louisville alone, that could mean an additional $44 million in pension payments, says McGarvey.

Rand questions why the Bevin Administration sent that letter when there’s not even consensus on how much the unfunded liabilities are. The estimates range from around $35 billion to more than $80 billion, depending on the financial assumptions used to calculate them.


“I fear that letter was sent out to fan the flames, to get people nervous,” says Rand. “There is a lot of anxiety and angst out there amongst retired employees, amongst mayors and county judges… I don’t think it serves any purpose to stir that pot unless you know exactly what you’re talking about.”

McGarvey voted for Bowen’s bill to separate the two plans. Miller says he believes a split between CERS and KERS is the right thing to do eventually but not immediately.

Other Options
While some lawmakers want to divorce KERS and CERS, Miller wants to merge the pension plan for legislators into the system for public employees.

“It is an embarrassment that the legislative plan is the best funded and I think the past legislatures that have let that run merrily along should be ashamed,” says Miller. “Legislators need to be treated exactly the same as KERS non-hazardous employees.”

Since he doubts many fellow lawmakers would endorse such a merger, Miller recommends that the state stop paying into the legislators’ plan until it reaches the dire funding level that KERS currently has.

In past years, House Democrats have proposed issuing pension obligation bonds to generate funds for the ailing retirement systems. The PFM Group did not recommend a general use of such bonds, but did say obligation bonds could be issued to help fund a buyout of those state employees who might opt to move their pension assets into a 401(k) plan.

“The whole concept of borrowing money to pay a debt just doesn’t compute with me,” says Bowen. “If we would have engaged in the pension obligation bonds when it was brought up four years ago… we would have lost $300 million in the market.”

Another option for lawmakers is to increase tax revenues so they could allocate more money to the retirement plans. Gov. Bevin originally proposed one special legislative session to address pension and tax reform simultaneously. The current plan is to tackle pensions first then look at tax reform sometime next year. Republicans argue that will give lawmakers a better idea of how much additional revenue the state will need to meet its pension obligations. Democrats say they can’t fix the pension crisis without first knowing where the money will come from.

Whenever legislators get to it, the tax debate will be contentious. Bevin has already said he won’t propose expanded gaming or legalizing and taxing marijuana as options for boosting state coffers. Rand says gaming should be considered because it could generate $550 million in licensing fees and $250 million in annual revenues for the commonwealth.

“I don’t care if the governor said it’s not on the table, it needs to be on the table because if all we’re going to do is raise the sales tax on working people, I just don’t know if that’s going to fly,” says Rand.

A special session on pension reform is now expected in early November. Bowen says lawmakers and the public will have ample opportunity to review the reform plan before it comes to a vote.

Renee and her guests discuss recent recommendations from a consulting group to shore up public employee pensions in Kentucky. Scheduled guests: State Sen. Joe Bowen, R-Owensboro, chair of the Senate State and Local Government Committee; State Sen. Morgan McGarvey, D-Louisville; State Rep. Jerry Miller, R-Louisville, chair of the House State Government Committee; and State Rep. Rick Rand, D-Bedford.

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Tax Policy: An Ongoing Debate

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National and State Politics

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Workers' Compensation

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State Tax Reform

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Current Foreign Policy Issues

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General Assembly Recap

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Changes in Health Care Policy

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2017 New Legislation

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Issues from the General Assembly

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Debating Charter Schools

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Debating State Tax Reform

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Renee Shaw hosts a review of the 2024 Kentucky lawmaking session. Scheduled guests: State Sen. Phillip Wheeler (R-Pikeville); State Sen. Cassie Chambers Armstrong (D-Louisville); State Rep. Rachel Roarx (D-Louisville); and State Rep. Michael Sarge Pollock (R-Campbellsville). A 2024 KET production.

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