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Discussion on Public Employee Pensions

Bill and his guests discuss public employee pensions. Scheduled guests: State Sen. Joe Bowen, R-Owensboro, chair of the Senate State and Local Government Committee and co-chair of the Public Pension Oversight Board; State Rep. Brent Yonts, D-Greenville, chair of the House State Government Committee and co-chair of the Public Pension Oversight Board; Bryan Sunderland, senior vice president of publi
Season 22 Episode 28 Length 56:33 Premiere: 06/28/15

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Kentucky Tonight

KET’s Kentucky Tonight, hosted by Renee Shaw, brings together an expert panel for in-depth analysis of major issues facing the Commonwealth.

This weekly program features comprehensive discussions with lawmakers, stakeholders and policy leaders that are moderated by award-winning journalist Renee Shaw.

For nearly three decades, Kentucky Tonight has been a source for complete and balanced coverage of the most urgent and important public affairs developments in the state of Kentucky.

Often aired live, viewers are encouraged to participate by submitting questions in real-time via email, Twitter or KET’s online form. Viewers with questions and comments may send an email to kytonight@ket.org or use the contact form. All messages should include first and last name and town or county. The phone number for viewer calls during the program is 800-494-7605.

After the broadcast, Kentucky Tonight programs are available on KET.org and via podcast (iTunes or Android). Files are normally accessible within 24 hours after the television broadcast.

Kentucky Tonight was awarded a 1997 regional Emmy by the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. The series was also honored with a 1995 regional Emmy nomination.

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Renee Shaw is the Director of Public Affairs and Moderator at KET, currently serving as host of KET’s weeknight public affairs program Kentucky Edition, the signature public policy discussion series Kentucky Tonight, the weekly interview series Connections, Election coverage and KET Forums.

Since 2001, Renee has been the producing force behind KET’s legislative coverage that has been recognized by the Kentucky Associated Press and the National Educational Telecommunications Association. Under her leadership, KET has expanded its portfolio of public affairs content to include a daily news and information program, Kentucky Supreme Court coverage, townhall-style forums, and multi-platform program initiatives around issues such as opioid addiction and youth mental health.  

Renee has also earned top awards from the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS), with three regional Emmy awards. In 2023, she was inducted into the Silver Circle of the NATAS, one of the industry’s highest honors recognizing television professionals with distinguished service in broadcast journalism for 25 years or more.  

Already an inductee into the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame (2017), Renee expands her hall of fame status with induction into Western Kentucky University’s Hall of Distinguished Alumni in November of 2023.  

In February of 2023, Renee graced the front cover of Kentucky Living magazine with a centerfold story on her 25 years of service at KET and even longer commitment to public media journalism. 

In addition to honors from various educational, civic, and community organizations, Renee has earned top honors from the Associated Press and has twice been recognized by Mental Health America for her years-long dedication to examining issues of mental health and opioid addiction.  

In 2022, she was honored with Women Leading Kentucky’s Governor Martha Layne Collins Leadership Award recognizing her trailblazing path and inspiring dedication to elevating important issues across Kentucky.   

In 2018, she co-produced and moderated a 6-part series on youth mental health that was awarded first place in educational content by NETA, the National Educational Telecommunications Association. 

She has been honored by the AKA Beta Gamma Omega Chapter with a Coretta Scott King Spirit of Ivy Award; earned the state media award from the Kentucky Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in 2019; named a Charles W. Anderson Laureate by the Kentucky Personnel Cabinet in 2019 honoring her significant contributions in addressing socio-economic issues; and was recognized as a “Kentucky Trailblazer” by the University of Kentucky Martin School of Public Policy and Administration during the Wendell H. Ford Lecture Series in 2019. That same year, Shaw was named by The Kentucky Gazette’s inaugural recognition of the 50 most notable women in Kentucky politics and government.  

Renee was bestowed the 2021 Berea College Service Award and was named “Unapologetic Woman of the Year” in 2021 by the Community Action Council.   

In 2015, she received the Green Dot Award for her coverage of domestic violence, sexual assault & human trafficking. In 2014, Renee was awarded the Anthony Lewis Media Award from the KY Department of Public Advocacy for her work on criminal justice reform. Two Kentucky governors, Republican Ernie Fletcher and Democrat Andy Beshear, have commissioned Renee as a Kentucky Colonel for noteworthy accomplishments and service to community, state, and nation.  

A former adjunct media writing professor at Georgetown College, Renee traveled to Cambodia in 2003 to help train emerging journalists on reporting on critical health issues as part of an exchange program at Western Kentucky University. And, she has enterprised stories for national media outlets, the PBS NewsHour and Public News Service.  

Shaw is a 2007 graduate of Leadership Kentucky, a board member of CASA of Lexington, and a longtime member of the Frankfort/Lexington Chapter of The Links Incorporated, an international, not-for-profit organization of women of color committed to volunteer service. She has served on the boards of the Kentucky Historical Society, Lexington Minority Business Expo, and the Board of Governors for the Ohio Valley Chapter of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. 

Host Renee Shaw smiling in a green dress with a KET set behind her.

Public Employee Pensions: Where Will the Money Come From?

The marble and granite halls of the state capitol may start to look like the proverbial rock and a hard place to legislators as they grapple with the public employees pension crisis.

Paying the actuarial required contributions to the Kentucky retirement systems for the next two years alone could more than consume any new revenues generated in the state, leaving lawmakers no options to increase funding for education, road projects, or other civic needs.

KET’s Kentucky Tonight explored the origins of the pension problem and some of the options for addressing it. The guests for the discussion were Public Pension Oversight Board co-chairs Sen. Joe Bowen (R-Owensboro) and Rep. Brent Yonts (D-Greenville), as well as Jason Bailey, executive director of the Kentucky Center for Economic Policy, and Bryan Sunderland, senior vice president of public affairs for the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce.

The Road to Crisis
How did Kentucky go from having a retirement system that was 125 percent funded in 2001 to one that Bloomberg Business News recently called “the nation’s worst-funded state pension”? The panel notes three primary causes:

  1. The commonwealth failed to properly pay the actuarially required contributions (ARCs) needed to maintain the retirement systems for state and county employees, teachers, legislators, police and judges. Jason Bailey says this dates back to the boom years of the 1990s, when investment returns were so good that legislators decided they didn’t need to make the full ARC payments each year.
  2. That habit continued even when the market slowed, according to Bailey. Now he says the ARC for the Kentucky Employees Retirement System (KERS) has been fully funded only seven times in the last 22 years. But Sen. Bowen argues the payments the state made were adequate to sustain the system – until the global financial crisis hit.
    “The biggest systemic problem I think we have now that permeates every system is the consequences of the 2008 recession,” Rep. Yonts adds in describing how the downturn slashed investment gains over the next few years.
  3. The third cause, says Yonts, is that the legislature provided cost-of-living adjustments to beneficiaries without funding those increases.

Bryan Sunderland says the shortfalls in the various pension programs range from $3.7 billion for the county employees system to $14 billion in the teachers’ pension program.

Are There Other Problems?
Sunderland points to a 2013 Pew Charitable Trusts study that indicates those three factors account for only about half of Kentucky’s pension woes. To determine the other problems, Sunderland and the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce have called for a performance audit to determine how well the state systems are managed by the investment advisers, why they don’t match performance benchmarks that other states meet, and what the administrative costs actually are.

“Let’s figure out before we infuse a bunch more into the system [how] this money is going to work, not only for the taxpayers, but for the people that were promised benefits that are becoming increasingly concerned they’re not going to be there,” Sunderland says.

Sen. Bowen, who is chair of the Senate State and Local Government Committee, agrees with Sunderland’s idea for a performance audit. He notes it would provide greater detail into the operation of the systems than lawmakers normally get from the regular actuarial audits of the finances of the various programs.

Rep. Yonts and Jason Bailey are less sanguine about the performance audit idea. Yonts says he’s concerned about the cost of such an audit and who would pay for it, the Legislative Research Commission or the pension systems.

Bailey of the Kentucky Center for Economic Policy wants to see more details about the performance audit plan before he can fully embrace the idea.

“At some point we have to understand and recognize that the pension problem is not primarily a pension problem,” Bailey says. “It’s a budget and tax problem… It’s more important that we begin to pivot to this broader discussion about revenue.”

More Money from Tax Reform
Bailey and Yonts say the state will be hard pressed to make the projected ARCs for the next two years, much less have any money left over for new budget priorities. That’s why they argue tax reform must be considered as a way to generate additional revenues for the state. Yonts says updating Kentucky’s antiquated tax system is key to fixing the pension systems and other problems facing the commonwealth.

Bowen contends such reforms would be simpler than many people think, especially if legislators focus on closing loopholes.

“We currently have a system that gives far too many exemptions to far too many different entities that are not paying their fair share of taxes,” Bowen argues. “So we need to start by devising a tax code that’s fair and equitable.”

Bryan Sunderland concurs with the need for tax reform, but cautions it must be done in a way that increases revenues, promotes economic growth, and makes Kentucky competitive with other states. He says even if the state generated $1 billion annually in new tax revenues and put all of that money towards the pension systems for the next 20 years, they still wouldn’t be fully funded. That’s why he urges additional reforms to the retirement plans.

“We’re not going to be able to fund our way out of this situation,” Sunderland says. “We’re going to have to look at additional reforms and we’re going to have to make sure that the money and the systems are run efficiently to make sure that we’re squeezing every dollar we can out of investment.”

Changes to Benefits
The call for “structural reforms” is often heard in the pension crisis debate. But the options for changing how Kentucky’s systems operate and how they pay out benefits may be limited.

Bailey says benefits in the state employees retirement system were cut in 2008 and in the 2013 reforms. Benefits to those in the Kentucky Teachers’ Retirement System (KTRS) were reduced in 2002 and 2008. And he says personnel in both systems have had to make increased contributions to their own retirements.

“So the ability to make these so-called structural changes and actually save money is limited,” Bailey says, “particularly because the benefits that have been earned are under an inviolable contract and owed legally and morally to the employees.”

House State Government Committee Chairman Yonts says that some of the changes made to the Kentucky Employees Retirement System (KERS) two years ago couldn’t be replicated in KTRS. For example, he says state employees are eligible for Social Security benefits whereas teachers are not.

Bowen adds that lawmakers have never discussed switching KTRS from a defined-benefit plan to a defined-contribution plan, primarily because of the Social Security issue.

To Bond or Not to Bond
Another source of revenue that’s been discussed is pension obligation bonds. In the 2015 General Assembly session, House Democrats proposed issuing $3.3 billion in bonds to help shore up KTRS. The idea stalled in the Republican-controlled Senate over fears of increasing the state’s overall debt.

Rep. Yonts contends the state will have to do some kind of bonding to help two of the systems maintain their liquidity. In addition to the proposed KTRS bond issue, he says KERS would need about $250 million in bonding.

“We’ve got to give them some cash through a bond issue to create more income so they can better function, better perform, and not be… going broke,” Yonts says.  “That’s what we have to do this next session.”

Sen. Bowen says bond issues are a huge gamble because of the vulnerability of such investments to market conditions. He says pension bonding done by the city of Detroit and by the states of Illinois and New Jersey ended up jeopardizing their systems more than they actually helped them.

But Bowen acknowledges Kentucky may have to look at bonding as an alternative to selling off assets to generate cash for benefit payments.

“When you start selling off your assets, you have no way to earn money in the market and that’s the challenge that they’re faced with,” Bowen says. “So, yes, they do need cash and they need cash now.”

Sunderland and Bailey agree that reducing assets is a bad strategy. But Bailey adds that pension bonding isn’t a new idea in Kentucky. He says the state did a small issue in 2010 for the teacher retirement system.

The Role of the Governor
The lawmakers say the budgeting process tends to complicate the pension situation. Since state budgets begin and end in the governor’s office, Sen. Bowen contends that Gov. Steve Beshear and his predecessors are complicit in the funding problems.

Bowen explains that legislators tend to follow the governor’s lead on what kind of ARC payment to make in a given year. Some years lawmakers have contributed more to the pension systems than the governor recommended, according to Bowen.

The Kentucky Chamber of Commerce’s Bryan Sunderland says its difficult for lawmakers and laypeople to know how much money has been allocated to pensions until state budgets are passed. He says he hopes the next governor will work more closely with legislators to determine how much the retirement systems actually need and how they’re going to pay for it.

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Connections host Renee Shaw smiling in a gray suit along with the show logo and a "Check Schedule" button.Connections host Renee Shaw smiling in a gray suit along with the show logo and a "Check Schedule" button.

Season 22 Episodes

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Candidates for Auditor of Public Accounts

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S22 E39 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/28/15

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S22 E38 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 09/21/15

Candidates for State Treasurer

S22 E37 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 09/14/15

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S22 E36 Length 56:36 Premiere Date 08/24/15

Health Care: A Reality Check

S22 E35 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 08/16/15

Tough Choices Ahead for State Budget

S22 E34 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 08/09/15

Jobs and Wages: Behind the Numbers

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Tax Reform: The Issue That Won't Go Away

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LGBT Rights and Religious Liberty

S22 E30 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 07/12/15

Postsecondary Education

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Discussion on Public Employee Pensions

S22 E28 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 06/28/15

Education Discussion

S22 E27 Length 56:35 Premiere Date 06/21/15

Energy and the Environment

S22 E26 Length 56:34 Premiere Date 06/14/15

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Analysis of the 2015 Primary

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Kentucky Republican Governor Primary

S22 E22 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 05/10/15

Democratic Primary for State Treasurer

S22 E18 Length 28:01 Premiere Date 04/12/15

Republican Primary for State Treasurer

S22 E16 Length 28:01 Premiere Date 03/29/15

2015 Kentucky Elections

S22 E15 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 03/22/15

General Assembly Breakdown

S22 E14 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 03/15/15

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Telephone Deregulation

S22 E11 Length 56:33 Premiere Date 02/09/15

Local Option Sales Tax

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